Finland 2€ CC 2019 UNC

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Re: Finland 2€ CC 2019 UNC

Postby luit » Mon 23 Dec 2019, 16:12

numismax wrote:Profit is not my goal, but instead to help fellow forum members get the coin cheaper.


Well, at least 2 of 3 dealers you mention sell this coin quite a lot cheaper than you do...
And I still think your coins have circulated, they just are of lower quality Finnish Mint normally delivers.
Since you did not get them from a regular dealer that also makes sense.

And somebody should know how many are in circulation, but we just don't know.
I cannot believe that coins at dealers now are sold to them by Nordic Moneta, who just won the tender to issue commemorative coins an year sets.
When they really start this way by distributing the coins worldwide only to some small coindealers that would be a very bad start, making them very impopular by their main customers, the more significant coindealers.
I've sent them an email, let's see what they answer.

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Re: Finland 2€ CC 2019 UNC

Postby luit » Mon 23 Dec 2019, 16:34

numismax wrote:It is already very old news that this coin is available in UNC.


Since all coins start their live as UNC, UNC coins will exist until all are in circulation.
It is very difficult to tell if coins sold today are really UNC, as long as they are directly from rolls with only commemorative coins, they might be UNC.
Depending how they are handled after coming out of the roll they still are. Not all sellers/dealers handle coins in the right manner, I know sellers who don't use gloves to get them out off the roll :roll:
At the moment I also see that in Netherlands only a few minor sellers (more or less hobby sellers) sell this coin, the sellers with reputation don't sell yet, because at the moment it is not available for a fair price and they just don't want to be part of a speculation network, because that will harm their future relation with their customers. In Germany I see the same situation, the better and larger dealers don't sell the coin.

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Re: Finland 2€ CC 2019 UNC

Postby numismax » Mon 23 Dec 2019, 16:58

luit wrote:
numismax wrote:Profit is not my goal, but instead to help fellow forum members get the coin cheaper.


Well, at least 2 of 3 dealers you mention sell this coin quite a lot cheaper than you do...
And I still think your coins have circulated, they just are of lower quality Finnish Mint normally delivers.
Since you did not get them from a regular dealer that also makes sense.

And somebody should know how many are in circulation, but we just don't know.
I cannot believe that coins at dealers now are sold to them by Nordic Moneta, who just won the tender to issue commemorative coins an year sets.
When they really start this way by distributing the coins worldwide only to some small coindealers that would be a very bad start, making them very impopular by their main customers, the more significant coindealers.
I've sent them an email, let's see what they answer.

Luit


My coins are UNC and the pictures support it.
Up to you what you want to believe. My coins are UNC but it is safe to say at this point that I will not get coins sold here due to the skepticism and lack of information.

Sopot sells only 2 coins per customer and I have never bought from him. Finntimo sells with higher price, but he hasn't updated his page. The third sells at 20€.

Oh, have a look at Finntimo's roll on Ebay. Ends in roughly 2h.
Close to 500€. I am just trying to give information but feels like it is not appreciated.

All I have as extras are these 3 coins.

One thing I agree with is the stupid way how Moneta is selling this coin. Should've been available in rolls at 65-70€ like previous years.

I'll reiterate that I do not know with 100% certainty whether the Finnish dealers got a small batch from Moneta (stated it earlier but may not be the case). Foreign dealers don't have the coin for sale because Moneta hasn't distributed to them yet. Finntimo told me he bought rolls from private persons.

Regarding what you said about my coins, you're wrong. I found several circ coins and these are brilliant compared to them. Plus the seller has a high reputation and sells on the largest Finnish auction site. My coins are UNC, just accept it. Might as well delete the sale post of this thread because one thing for sure is that I won't manage to get anything sold :D
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Re: Finland 2€ CC 2019 UNC

Postby numismax » Mon 23 Dec 2019, 17:10

luit wrote:
numismax wrote:It is already very old news that this coin is available in UNC.


Since all coins start their live as UNC, UNC coins will exist until all are in circulation.
It is very difficult to tell if coins sold today are really UNC, as long as they are directly from rolls with only commemorative coins, they might be UNC.
Depending how they are handled after coming out of the roll they still are. Not all sellers/dealers handle coins in the right manner, I know sellers who don't use gloves to get them out off the roll :roll:
At the moment I also see that in Netherlands only a few minor sellers (more or less hobby sellers) sell this coin, the sellers with reputation don't sell yet, because at the moment it is not available for a fair price and they just don't want to be part of a speculation network, because that will harm their future relation with their customers. In Germany I see the same situation, the better and larger dealers don't sell the coin.

Luit


Yup..but the main reason they don't sell it is simply because it's a difficult coin to get. Ebay prices speaks for itself. Come January, we'll know more.

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Re: Finland 2€ CC 2019 UNC

Postby luit » Mon 23 Dec 2019, 17:32

numismax wrote:Yup..but the main reason they don't sell it is simply because it's a difficult coin to get. Ebay prices speaks for itself. Come January, we'll know more.

I don't agree with you on that one, it is not difficult to get, you just have to pay the speculants!
A lot of serious dealers simply don't want to get involved in such practices, especially because nobody can tell at the moment if a normal issue will follow.
When you buy such a coin at a serious dealer now and see it for a fraction of the price within a month, you think twice before you buy from such a dealer again...

numismax wrote: but just imagine paying postage costs abroad :)

I guess you also charge postage costs, so why mention it for the other sellers in Finland

numismax wrote:One thing I agree with is the stupid way how Moneta is selling this coin. Should've been available in rolls at 65-70€ like previous years.

Where do you have information Nordic Moneta is actually selling those coins already? Last year they were sold by Finnish Mint, but that changed in the new tenders. Personally I think the coins sold now are not through the official circuit, but just intercepted somewhere in the trajectory from Finnish Mint to the shops who should put them in circulation, because they can make quite a lot of money for them, about 15-20 euro for each coin!! :evil:

numismax wrote:I'll reiterate that I do not know with 100% certainty whether the Finnish dealers got a small batch in this month (stated it earlier but may not be the case). Foreign dealers don't have the coin for sale because Moneta hasn't distributed to them yet.

I know 2 online shops in Netherlands and 1 online shop in Germany that sell those coins, which is not surprising because everybody can buy rolls from the speculation network...
Just like the Finnish dealers you mention do, as I suppose, unless of course you have info from Nordic Moneta that they actually delivered those dealers. Just ask yourself the question why other larger Finnish sellers don't sell the coin, why did Nordic Moneta not deliver to them?

Biggest problem at the moment is, that yet it is not known this particular coin will be distributed by Nordic Moneta at all, it still is possible that only through the current unofficial channels this coin will be available.

numismax wrote:Regarding what you said about my coins, you're wrong. I found several circ coins and these are brilliant compared to them. Plus the seller has a high reputation and sells on the largest Finnish auction site. My coins are UNC, just accept it.

Because of the design with large fields on it this coin, it will degrade in circulation soon, on your coins there are already marks and scratches, which of course can already occur in the Mint, but normally Finnish Mint delivers very high quality.
I have see pictures of better coins.
I accept what I want, and to me your coins are not UNC. But everybody has a right on his own opinion, and you post pictures, so everybody who want to buy can see what he gets, that is fair!

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Re: Finland 2€ CC 2019 UNC

Postby numismax » Mon 23 Dec 2019, 18:12

luit wrote:
numismax wrote:Yup..but the main reason they don't sell it is simply because it's a difficult coin to get. Ebay prices speaks for itself. Come January, we'll know more.

I don't agree with you on that one, it is not difficult to get, you just have to pay the speculants!
A lot of serious dealers simply don't want to get involved in such practices, especially because nobody can tell at the moment if a normal issue will follow.
When you buy such a coin at a serious dealer now and see it for a fraction of the price within a month, you think twice before you buy from such a dealer again...

numismax wrote: but just imagine paying postage costs abroad :)

I guess you also charge postage costs, so why mention it for the other sellers in Finland

numismax wrote:One thing I agree with is the stupid way how Moneta is selling this coin. Should've been available in rolls at 65-70€ like previous years.

Where do you have information Nordic Moneta is actually selling those coins already? Last year they were sold by Finnish Mint, but that changed in the new tenders. Personally I think the coins sold now are not through the official circuit, but just intercepted somewhere in the trajectory from Finnish Mint to the shops who should put them in circulation, because they can make quite a lot of money for them, about 15-20 euro for each coin!! :evil:

numismax wrote:I'll reiterate that I do not know with 100% certainty whether the Finnish dealers got a small batch in this month (stated it earlier but may not be the case). Foreign dealers don't have the coin for sale because Moneta hasn't distributed to them yet.

I know 2 online shops in Netherlands and 1 online shop in Germany that sell those coins, which is not surprising because everybody can buy rolls from the speculation network...
Just like the Finnish dealers you mention do, as I suppose, unless of course you have info from Nordic Moneta that they actually delivered those dealers. Just ask yourself the question why other larger Finnish sellers don't sell the coin, why did Nordic Moneta not deliver to them?

Biggest problem at the moment is, that yet it is not known this particular coin will be distributed by Nordic Moneta at all, it still is possible that only through the current unofficial channels this coin will be available.

numismax wrote:Regarding what you said about my coins, you're wrong. I found several circ coins and these are brilliant compared to them. Plus the seller has a high reputation and sells on the largest Finnish auction site. My coins are UNC, just accept it.

Because of the design with large fields on it this coin, it will degrade in circulation soon, on your coins there are already marks and scratches, which of course can already occur in the Mint, but normally Finnish Mint delivers very high quality.
I have see pictures of better coins.
I accept what I want, and to me your coins are not UNC. But everybody has a right on his own opinion, and you post pictures, so everybody who want to buy can see what he gets, that is fair!

Luit


With "difficult to get" I meant difficult to get at a low price. It's a big investment and understandably most don't want to take the risk.

I could be wrong and Moneta will deliver this normally like Mint of Finland did previous years. Time will tell. I won't bother commenting on the coin:; whatever coin you'll get will be no different. Professionals use a lot of time to take quality pictures. I don't. My coin looks just like other UNC coins. Minor scratches just have to be accepted, unlike PROOF.

A contact told me that no seller has yet confirmed where they got the coin from. So most likely Moneta has only delivered rolls to stores/shops.

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Re: Finland 2€ CC 2019 UNC

Postby luit » Mon 23 Dec 2019, 18:33

numismax wrote:With "difficult to get" I meant difficult to get at a low price. It's a big investment and understandably most don't want to take the risk.

For a serious coindealer it certainly is not a big investment, only for small dealers from which a lot do it as a hobby it is a big investment, so why do just the large dealers not sell the coin? I think because they care about their customer relation.
Do you really think buying a roll for 500 euro is a big investment? :lol:

numismax wrote:whatever coin you'll get will be no different. Professionals use a lot of time to take quality pictures. I don't. My coin looks just like other UNC coins. Minor scratches just have to be accepted, unlike PROOF.

You may believe that, and maybe this coin is not minted as good as other Finnish coins because the Mint knows they are for circulation, but for an UNC coin it just does not look very good.

numismax wrote:A contact told me that no seller has yet confirmed where they got the coin from. So most likely Moneta has only delivered rolls to stores/shops.

I don't think Nordic Moneta will deliver any coin to any store/shop, it is not their task, they just won the tender for coins/sets for collectors. Coins for circulation are as usually distributed by Finnish Mint (Suomen Rahapaja)

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Re: Finland 2€ CC 2019 UNC

Postby numismax » Mon 23 Dec 2019, 18:54

luit wrote:
numismax wrote:With "difficult to get" I meant difficult to get at a low price. It's a big investment and understandably most don't want to take the risk.

For a serious coindealer it certainly is not a big investment, only for small dealers from which a lot do it as a hobby it is a big investment, so why do just the large dealers not sell the coin? I think because they care about their customer relation.
Do you really think buying a roll for 500 euro is a big investment? :lol:

numismax wrote:whatever coin you'll get will be no different. Professionals use a lot of time to take quality pictures. I don't. My coin looks just like other UNC coins. Minor scratches just have to be accepted, unlike PROOF.

You may believe that, and maybe this coin is not minted as good as other Finnish coins because the Mint knows they are for circulation, but for an UNC coin it just does not look very good.

numismax wrote:A contact told me that no seller has yet confirmed where they got the coin from. So most likely Moneta has only delivered rolls to stores/shops.

I don't think Nordic Moneta will deliver any coin to any store/shop, it is not their task, they just won the tender for coins/sets for collectors. Coins for circulation are as usually distributed by Finnish Mint (Suomen Rahapaja)

Luit


I think dealers would usually buy 10+ rolls if not 50+. Don't know where you got your 500 from?

Looks like just any other fresh UNC coin. The left coin has a small scratch at 7 o'clock, so can't call it a beautiful coin but when you take both sides of the two coins into account, they look UNC to me.

Actually, the Bank of Finland owns the coins after they are minted. They distribute them to circulation. Moneta won the contract to sell them to collectors. BoF sold or will sell some to Moneta. My judgment on the situation is that all dealers who have the coin have got them from private persons who in turn got them from various places such as cash desks.

Shame not even one Finn has commented, except jtl several days ago.
Would give a lot of added value if someone else would give their insight. Preferably someone from Finland.

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Re: Finland 2€ CC 2019 UNC

Postby luit » Mon 23 Dec 2019, 19:09

numismax wrote:I think dealers would usually buy 10+ rolls if not 50+. Don't know where you got your 500 from?

Just depends on how large a dealer is, but for large dealers even 5000 euro is peanuts, so financially it would be no problem. I is just that at the moment they don't want to risk selling them to their customers because of the risk it can drop very fast in price. At the moment it is certain there will be no official source for the coin this might be changing.

numismax wrote:My judgment on the situation is that all dealers who have the coin have got them from private persons who in turn got them from various places such as cash desks.

That is also my judgement, maybe somebody has good contacts in the distribution chain.

numismax wrote:Shame not even one Finn has commented, except jtl several days ago.
Would give a lot of added value if someone else would give their insight. Preferably someone from Finland.

Information, or better said the lack of it is the main problem at the moment. It would be a good idea for Nordic Moneta to publish what they want to do, but maybe they don't know either because they might be dependant from the Ministry of Finance.
And when the situation in Finland is like in the Netherlands, getting comprehensive information from the ministry might be very difficult and take long time.

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Re: Finland 2€ CC 2019 UNC

Postby magneto » Fri 27 Dec 2019, 17:11

just found this article in FB i can't verify it

Speculation has almost come to an end...

In November, the Ministry of Finance has awarded the contract for the sales of Finnish collector coins to Nordic Moneta OY.
This company is now the official distributor of the Finnish numismatic products.

Through their website suomenmoneta.fi, the company just started the sales of the Finnish 2 euro commemorative coin dedicated to the Constitution Act of 1919.

Single coins cost €5,95, coins in wholesale (250 coins or more) cost €3,95 per piece.

According to Nordic Moneta, they still have 90.000 coins in stock.